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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Keel Bolts

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dolivaw
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USA
109 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/26/2012 : 12:05:32

Anyone know a good shipyard to install new keel bolts in the Kemah area? I've tried Mockingbird and South Texas, but the quotes are 2-3k.

RonH
'81 C-25 SR/FK/Trad #2470

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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1181 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2012 : 12:54:23

Ron,
I suspect you have a cast iron keel and will need new studs "sistered" with the existing studs. I think the lead keels used bolts instead of the studs. I would contact a local machine shop and see if they have someone who could come down to your boat and do the job. This can be done with the boat in the water and does not require lifting the boat unless the keel requires resetting. When I did mine I used a 1/2" inch heavy Duty drill from Harbor Freight to drill new holes, tapped them and then inserted new stainless studs cut from a piece of all-thread. Fender Washers and nuts secured the new studs along with some sealant to waterproof where the stud entered the sole of the boat. Total cost was about $250 in material, including the drill. A machine shop can probably provide the mobile labor a lot cheaper than a boatyard.

Edited by - on

dolivaw
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109 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2012 : 13:10:08

Kent @ Catalina believed the keel to most likely be lead. I need to find a really big magnet to test with, although I'm not sure I can test from the bilge.

Edited by - on

OJ
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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2012 : 13:29:14

If you perform a search you will find many threads on this topic.

A former C25 owner here hired someone with a drillpress that sat on the main salon floor.

$2-$3K sounds pretty darn high. Think you are paying for a lot of overhead if you use a shipyard.

'81 sounds young for a lead keel.

Edited by - OJ on 04/26/2012 13:30:28

CarbonSink62
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208 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2012 : 13:45:34

FWIW - I tested the keel on my FK '82 and it is all steel.

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dolivaw
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109 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2012 : 13:59:16

I've gone through the forums already. I'm looking for a recommendation in the area, since the quotes I'm getting are so high. I hadn't thought of trying a machine shop though. Should I be concerned about their experience working with boat keels?

The keel is loose and needs to be tightened. There was a visible wobble when we did the quick-haul last year.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 04/26/2012 : 17:59:09

Here's one of many.

Seems there's a bit of an art to this. Pilot holes, right bit, right speed, with (or without) cutting oil.

Try the search words "sister bolts" . . . you'll get several hits.

Drill press technique may have been unique, rare.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23510

Edited by - OJ on 04/26/2012 18:00:54

GaryB
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Response Posted - 04/26/2012 : 18:06:54

Ron,

Are you at Watergate?

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OJ
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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2012 : 18:24:38

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/66223-keel-saga-those-contemplating-procedure-your-boat.html

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2012 : 18:47:50

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/keels

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2012 : 19:41:39

If your keel is lead, which I doubt, it is encased in a thick layer of fibrous material, and the keel bolts are stainless steel with shiny stainless nuts you can see in the sump. If the '81 FK is cast iron, which I believe it is (not steel), rust will most likely be apparent on the exterior surface, and the bolts and nuts in the sump will probably look rusty--they're mild steel instead of stainless.

Either keel is attached to a wood-reinforced keel stub that is part of the hull. If that wood has deteriorated due to moisture intrusion, that could be a major contributor to the "wobble" and the "Catalina smile" in the keel-hull joint. Drill a test hole through the fiberglass at the bottom of the sump, between the bolts, to see what the condition of that wood is--if it's mush, it needs to be dug out and replaced with something before new bolts are installed--there's a variety of opinions on what to use. (I'm chicken--I'd look for some professional advice.)

Good luck.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/26/2012 19:46:27

dolivaw
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Response Posted - 04/26/2012 : 21:11:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 Ron,

Are you at Watergate?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yep... Over on pier 6.

Edited by - on

dolivaw
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Response Posted - 04/26/2012 : 21:23:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 If your keel is lead, which I doubt, it is encased in a thick layer of fibrous material, and the keel bolts are stainless steel with shiny stainless nuts you can see in the sump. If the '81 FK is cast iron, which I believe it is (not steel), rust will most likely be apparent on the exterior surface, and the bolts and nuts in the sump will probably look rusty--they're mild steel instead of stainless.

Either keel is attached to a wood-reinforced keel stub that is part of the hull. If that wood has deteriorated due to moisture intrusion, that could be a major contributor to the "wobble" and the "Catalina smile" in the keel-hull joint. Drill a test hole through the fiberglass at the bottom of the sump, between the bolts, to see what the condition of that wood is--if it's mush, it needs to be dug out and replaced with something before new bolts are installed--there's a variety of opinions on what to use. (I'm chicken--I'd look for some professional advice.)

Good luck.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It really sounds like it's probably cast iron, although Catalina said there was an 80% chance it was lead. Maybe Kent thought I said '84...

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2012 : 05:51:33

As Dave stated, the wood in the stub could be deteriorated resulting in the keel wobble and if the keel is wobbling, it may need to be rebonded to the stub which is a bit more involved than simply sistering in new bolts.

This drawing from a C27 site illustrates what may be involved in repairing the wood core.

http://www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/images/keel_factory_drawings/keel_stub_wood_procedure_from_catalina.gif

Looking at this drawing, it appears Catalina stopped using wood in the stub in later models.

http://www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/images/keel_factory_drawings/keel_construction_pre_may1988_from_catalina.gif

Edited by - dlucier on 04/27/2012 06:10:00

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2012 : 07:06:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 ...it appears Catalina stopped using wood in the stub in later models...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That would have been wise!

Edited by - on

dolivaw
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Response Posted - 05/01/2012 : 18:25:44

Finally a piece of good news. We took a core sample from the bilge today and found the wood to be completely dry. The guy that took the sample gave me a reasonable estimate for installing new keel bolts and painting the bottom. And unlike my experience at one of the other yards, I didn't feel like a third rate citizen with my little worthless Cat 25.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 05/01/2012 : 18:47:38

That is good news Ron.

So, handheld drill? Stainless hardware?

Edited by - OJ on 05/01/2012 18:48:39

dolivaw
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Response Posted - 05/01/2012 : 20:57:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 That is good news Ron.

So, handheld drill? Stainless hardware?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

He took the sample with a handheld. I think he'll be using a drill press for the new holes. We didn't go into details on the hardware yet. I know he said stainless, but I probably need to find out what he's got in mind.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 04:02:29

Doesn't magnet answer the lead vs steel question every time?

Is it too cold to dive the keel and put a magnet on it there?

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 06:45:38

With all due respect, I think there's an "80% chance" Kent's memory is faulty, and the '81 keel is cast iron. If the existing keel bolts are rusty, they're the mild steel used with the cast iron keel. If they and the nuts are shiny, they're the stainless studs that were cast into the lead keel.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/02/2012 06:46:26

Steve Milby
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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 07:09:00

My 81 (#2554) was definitely cast iron, and I'm fairly sure lead keels didn't appear until 83 or 84.

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dolivaw
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109 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 15:46:02

I think we're pretty certain it's cast iron at this point. I'm guessing Kent misunderstood me and thought I said '84. That would make more sense IMO. As for diving, have you seen Clear Lake water? No one wants to touch that stuff. =)

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 17:51:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dolivaw
 I think we're pretty certain it's cast iron at this point. I'm guessing Kent misunderstood me and thought I said '84. That would make more sense IMO. As for diving, have you seen Clear Lake water? No one wants to touch that stuff. =)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I've always wondered how they came up with Clear Lake. On the best of days the visibility is about 6".

Edited by - GaryB on 05/02/2012 17:56:40

Jan Briede
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 18:04:59

I did mine two years ago. It was a job, but doable.

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dolivaw
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Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 21:19:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dolivaw
 I think we're pretty certain it's cast iron at this point. I'm guessing Kent misunderstood me and thought I said '84. That would make more sense IMO. As for diving, have you seen Clear Lake water? No one wants to touch that stuff. =)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I've always wondered how they came up with Clear Lake. On the best of days the visibility is about 6".

Ron, who are you planning on using for the bottom job. I'll probably need one sometime this year?

I have a small but strong magnet with an eyebolt on it. We might be able to attach it to a piece of PVC and reach under the boat far enough to get it to stick to the keel if it's cast iron.

Are you going to be at the boat Saturday?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm using Ben Miller. Nice guy & his prices were reasonable. You might be able to get it cheaper at the shipyard in the marina, but on everything else they've been much higher.

I think we're going to try to go to that swap meet in the morning, then maybe over to the WM grand opening. After that I'll most likely be at the boat. Let me know what time you'll be around and I'll try to be there then.

Edited by - on

dolivaw
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Response Posted - 05/03/2012 : 12:27:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jan Briede
 I did mine two years ago. It was a job, but doable.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jan... Did you use all thread or lag bolts?

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